Hole in My Heart Podcast

Episode 118 Take Two: Tough Conversations with Friends with Stephanie Thole

Engaging conversations on race or sexuality is a hard, holy task.
As Christians, we don’t always do it well, even if our hearts are in the right place.
Are these conversations the same?
How are they different?
Can we advocate justice and unity without endorsing what is not God’s best?
And how do we do this with our friends?
Stephanie Thole entered into this conversation with extraordinary grace and kindness, and we are thrilled to listen in again.
//: Highlights
“We were one of the few black families. I remember always being so attracted to all of these white boys. In my mind, I was like, ‘I gotta get rid of this…’ I understood at a very early age that that was not allowed.” —Stephanie Thole
“I was very much aware at how different I was. That I was ‘other.’” —Stephanie Thole
“A lot of us have made mistakes, have had hard conversations, have offended the wrong person, and it’s been a painful, awkward experience. Don’t let that stop you. Keep walking.” —Stephanie Thole
//: Do the Next Thing
For more on this conversation, check out our friends Daniel Hill and Rebecca McLaughlin! They lend their voices well to these issues.
The Secular Creed by Rebecca McLaughlin.
White Lies by Daniel Hill. 
You can also listen to our interview with Rebecca McLaughlin here! 
Have you seen our new favorite Bible yet? Check it out here! 
Follow Laurie on Instagram for more ministry updates! 

Episode 114 Take Two: Seeing Friends As Siblings with Rachel Gilson

Sometimes, we need the cold water bucket of siblinghood thrown over our heads and our questions.
What happens when we feel attraction toward our friends?
What if we become enmeshed with other people?
How do we guard against turning inward rather than outward, and encourage one another to continue on mission with Jesus?
Rachel Gilson shares her story and the beauty of being family in Christ in really helpful ways. We’re thrilled to revisit this conversation with her.
Listen in with us.
 
//:Highlights
“We kind of intuitively sense that a sibling relationship is a special kind of relationship: It has both really deep intimacy but is absolutely not erotic.” –Rachel Gilson
“A lot of time what temptation does is it wants to pull away our focus from, ‘God has given me gifts and opportunity to—with His Body—build His kingdom.’ Temptation ends up being this big gospel waste.” –Rachel Gilson
“Occasionally, you get this best friend situation where you turn inward like an ingrown toenail … you end up pairing up in a way that shuts out the broader body. There is something about sibling-hood that reminds us we are a part of a family.” –Rachel Gilson
//: Do the Next Thing
For more from Rachel Gilson, check out her book, Born Again This Way. 
Also, check out her article “I Never Became Straight” on Christianity Today, which one of the most read of its time.
You can also listen to our first episode with Rachel Gilson here. 
Also! Check out Kelly Needham on codependency here. 
Have you seen our new favorite Bible yet? Check it out here! 
Join our Facebook group for more updates! 

Episode 93 Take Two: Broken + Beloved Pastors with Brad Klaver

After witnessing three excommunications of leaders in the church, Brad Klaver vowed that he would never share his same-sex attractions with anyone.
The Holy Spirit had other plans.
After over a decade of pastoring and marriage, God brought Brad face to face with himself—and it changed his life forever.
Will you join us as we listen again to this beautiful story of gospel transformation?
I Highlight I
“I remember exactly where I was watching [the excommunications] unfold. In me there was this internal wrestle of fear of: ‘I don’t know where this came from. I don’t know why I have this. I don’t know where this all began or what was done to me to make me like this, but all I know based on what I am seeing now is … this is what happens if people find out. You admit it, and you are shown the door.’ … I said to myself… ‘I will never tell anyone. Ever.’ That commitment was kept for 25 years.” –Brad Klaver
“If there’s one piece of encouragement that I could give listeners—invite the person you don’t understand to your table. There’s power in the fellowship around the table….There’s a reason that there’s power in communion, in the breaking of bread and of prayer. And the fact of the matter is that, for Michelle and I, the thing that we longed for most when we stepped down….We were never invited over for dinner…” -Brad Klaver
I Do the Next Thing I
Want more stories of Christians surrendering their sexuality? Check these out:
Greg Coles’ beautiful autobiography Single, Gay, Christian. https://www.amazon.com/Single-Gay-Christian-Personal-Identity/dp/0830845127
Rachel Gilson’s incredible story Born Again This Way. https://www.amazon.com/Born-Again-This-Rachel-Gilson/dp/178498390X
And for more resources on sexuality, visit the CenterForFaith.com.
Have you seen our new favorite Bible yet? Check it out here! https://csbholylandillustratedbible.com
Follow Laurie on Instagram for more ministry updates! https://www.instagram.com/laurie_krieg/?hl=en

Episode 92 Take Two: Broken + Beloved Pastors with Johnny and Amanda McKenna

Guys! We’re back with this highly requested conversation with our REAL LIFE FRIENDS Johnny and Amanda.
What happens when a pastor suffers addiction in silence?
What happens when he has an affair?
What happens when health problems keep a couple from having sex?
Is there hope for marriages that go through these things?
Johnny and Amanda are here to say YES! God is a God of redemption and their story is beautiful proof. It’s worth the listen.
I Highlights I
“I constantly felt like I didn’t measure up. Pornography was an escape from that feeling for me. ‘Finally, I don’t have to feel that just for that moment.’ But after that moment is over . . . now I’m right where I started, and in an even worse spot.”
–Johnny McKenna
“We could not have sex for two years of our marriage. I was so ashamed. I didn’t know what was wrong with me, what was wrong with my body. I didn’t understand it. It’s so hard and embarrassing to talk about with people . . . I felt so helpless.”
–Amanda McKenna
“All this is going on and I’m saying to myself … ‘You’re such a scumbag … It’s time to take my life … I’ll be gone, but my legacy will be in tact. I won’t be this pastor that is another Hall of Shame member. I won’t have to tell my boys that I failed them–that I cheated on their mom. I won’t have to tell my youth group kids and leaders. I can at least provide for them financially. They’ll be in a better place because I have life insurance.’ I thought that was the best case scenario. Those were the lies Satan was whispering in my ear.”
–Johnny Mckenna
”One of the things [my friend] said was, ‘Amanda, God is saving your husband right now.’ It shocked me. ‘What do you mean He’s saving us? It feels like He’s killing us.’ But then that meaning sunk in: Johnny was living bound and held captive by his sin. But now, God was in the process of saving him. …That’s really beautiful if you think about it: God steps into the mess and he fights for you.”
–Amanda McKenna
I Do the Next Thing I
Have you seen our new favorite Bible yet? Check it out here! https://csbholylandillustratedbible.com
Join our Facebook group for more updates! https://www.facebook.com/groups/himhpodcast

Episode 91 Take Two: Broken + Beloved Pastors with Ben and Lauren Schulke

We are thrilled to be revisiting the Broken and Beloved Pastors series! In the next three episodes, we’ll hear the stories of three pastors who are, like all of us, “more loved than we can imagine and more sinful than we believe.”
What happens when a pastor wrestles with gender dysphoria?
What happens when the same pastor is called to bring that wrestling into the light, in his marriage and with his community?
What happens to his ministry? To his marriage? To his identity?
Ben and Lauren Schulke answer these questions and more as they recount their story with us. We are honored to share it with you.
I Highlights I
“I very much tried to control the image of how people saw me. But . . . when people know me they can choose to love me and not some facsimile.” –Ben Schulke
“I got to this place where I said, ‘I would rather be obedient to God than preserve something temporary–like my job.'”–Ben Schulke
“Ben’s identity is not gender dysphoria. His identity is not whatever other sin or brokenness he is dealing with. That’s not who he is. He is a son of God, and he is loved by Him.” –Lauren Schulke
I Do the Next Thing I
For more on this conversation, check out Mark Yarhouse’s book Emerging Gender Identities! It’s exciting stuff. :D https://www.amazon.com/Emerging-Gender-Identities-Understanding-Experiences/dp/1587434342
You can also check out Preston Sprinkle’s book on trans* issues, Embodied. https://www.amazon.com/Embodied-Transgender-Identities-Church-Bible/dp/0830781226
Have you seen our new favorite Bible yet? Check it out here! https://csbholylandillustratedbible.com
Follow Laurie on Instagram for more ministry updates! https://www.instagram.com/laurie_krieg/?hl=en

Episode 99 Take Two: A Gender Conversation with Heather Skriba

The gender conversation today is swirling with confusion and hurt for everyone involved.
How do we as Christians enter into this conversation?
Today, we revisit a conversation with Heather Skriba, who, having wrestled with gender dysphoria her whole life, has a compassionate and truthful perspective on this issue.
We’re thrilled to share this episode once again! Join us!
I Highlights I
“God never just settles for salvation. He is truly redeeming everything.” -Heather Skriba
“There are people in my life that didn’t call me by name for two years, and by extension, didn’t use a pronoun when referring to me … How can you expect to have any trust or relational equity built if you are not even willing to refer to someone in a way that distinguishes them as human?”
–Heather Skriba
“I didn’t know how to let God into the painful, hurting, and dark places of my heart–not just gender– but anxiety, codependency, insecurity, and self hatred. I didn’t know how to access the heart of God in those places … I think that is something that is really missing from a lot of relationships when people try to walk with LGBT people and LGBT Christians.” –Heather Skriba
I Do the Next Thing I
For more on this conversation, check out Mark Yarhouse’s book Emerging Gender Identities! It’s exciting stuff. :D https://www.amazon.com/Emerging-Gender-Identities-Understanding-Experiences/dp/1587434342
Have you seen our new favorite Bible yet? Check it out here! https://csbholylandillustratedbible.com
Join our Facebook group for more updates! https://www.facebook.com/groups/himhpodcast

Episode 83 Take Two: Sexuality and Shame with Dan Allender

So often, sexuality brings shame right on its heels.
How can we banish it? How can we heal?
Join us today as we revisit this conversation with Dr. Dan Allender to learn how stepping into the light and grace of Jesus can heal our shame when it comes to sexuality.
***Heads up: We do address sexual trauma in this episode, though not graphically. If this is part of your story or that of someone close to you, please take care of yourself and listen with caution.***
I Highlights I
“The return on investment for the kingdom of darkness is profound in regard to abuse. [It] disintegrates some level of our faith, our ability to trust, our ability to dream and hope, and certainly our ability to give delight and pleasure to one another.” –Dan Allender
“I think contempt is our way to manage shame with a level of control that annihilates ourselves so we don’t feel, so we don’t want, so we don’t risk. Contempt is really just another form of self-hatred that allows us to lessen the experience of shame.” –Dan Allender
“I’ve seen it literally thousands of times: People who enter the truth and allow their hearts to receive kindness … that’s the context for the Spirit of God to bring about remarkable change.” –Dan Allender
I Do the Next Thing I
Check out Dan’s books!
* *Healing the Wounded Heart*: https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Wounded-Heart-Heartache-Transformation/dp/0801015685/ref=sr_1_1?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuKW167mj4gIVr__jBx1WqA6aEAAYAiAAEgKOSPD_BwE&hvadid=174217451664&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9017520&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t2&hvqmt=e&hvrand=15049734708914584592&hvtargid=kwd-2871614828&hydadcr=24629_9648897&keywords=healing+the+wounded+heart&qid=1558126587&s=gateway&sr=8-1
* *God Loves Sex*: https://www.amazon.com/God-Loves-Sex-Conversation-Holiness/dp/0801015669/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=god+loves+sex&qid=1558126633&s=gateway&sr=8-1
While you’re at it, head over to the Allender Center for more resources and information! https://theallendercenter.org/
Looking for more podcasts? The Allender Center has a good one. https://theallendercenter.org/category/podcast/
For ministries updates from Laurie and the Crew, join our Facebook group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/himhpodcast
Have you seen our new favorite Bible yet? Check it out here! https://csbholylandillustratedbible.com

Episode 82 Take Two: How to Lament with Mark Vroegop

As Laurie says, “We’re kind of lament-obsessed around here.”
It’s true. And it made running this episode a second time an easy choice for this series.
Since the first time this episode ran, there is still pain and brokenness in our lives, and we need a place to take it. Cue Mark Vroegop, ushering us to the feet of Jesus with this spiritual practice that truly has revolutionized our lives.
Will you lament with us today?
I Highlights I
“People who know how to lament are comfortable with saying less or nothing. They intuitively have a heart that is oriented toward empathy. They don’t panic when their friend says something that is edgy or a little scary.” –Mark Vroegop
“Lament is not just crying. Lament is talking to God about what causes the crying.” –Mark Vroegop
“One out of every three songs in the official songbook of God’s people–songs that had music and were sung–reflect this sort of minor key [lament] tune. We are not only unfamiliar with lament, but our churches are generally lament-light.” –Mark Vroegop
I Do the Next Thing I
Check out Mark’s book, *Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy: Discovering the Grace of Lament* here: http://markvroegop.com/books/
Want more of Mark Vroegop? Read some of his articles here!
* “Strong Churches Speak the Language of Lament” on Gospel Coalition: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/strong-churches-lanuage-lament/
* “Dare to Hope in God: How to Lament Well” on Desiring God: https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/dare-to-hope-in-god
For more on lament, listen to Laurie’s “How to Lament in the Face of Pushback” talk here: https://soundcloud.com/laurie-krieg/bonus-facing-the-unthinkable-talk
Also, to learn about Safe Place Prayer, find Matt’s thoughts here: https://soundcloud.com/laurie-krieg/bonus-safe-place-prayer-with-matt
Have you seen our new favorite Bible yet? Check it out here! https://csbholylandillustratedbible.com
Join our Facebook group for more updates! https://www.facebook.com/groups/himhpodcast

Episode 64 Take Two: Exploring Our Souls of Shame with Curt Thompson

Welcome to TAKE TWO of Exploring Our Souls of Shame!
Rerunning this episode was an obvious choice because we *all* deal with shame.
Curt Thompson beautifully describes not only the experience of shame, but also its antidote: Jesus.
Join us as we learn resilience and joy in this brilliant conversation!
I Highlights I
“The gospel–if it is good news–does not begin with ‘I am more sinful than I believe.’ It begins, in fact, with ‘I am more loved than I can imagine.’ It is in that space of being loved incessantly, relentlessly, that we become aware just how sinful we are.” –Dr. Curt Thompson, M.D.
“God–even in His pursuit–He is not going to shame us. He is not going to twist my arm. He is not going to shame me for not having my shame cleaned up well enough. He is going to relentlessly pursue me.” –Dr. Curt Thompson, M.D.
“The healing of shame is not just a way for us to not longer feel bad about ourselves. It’s a way to re-commission us to do the work of goodness and beauty that God has had for us since before the creation of the world.” –Dr. Curt Thompson, M.D.
I Do the Next Thing I
Check out Curt’s book, the *Soul of Shame.* https://www.amazon.com/Soul-Shame-Retelling-Stories-Ourselves/dp/0830844333
Want to learn more about shame? Listen to our other episodes on it here!
- Episode 155: Getting to the Root of Porn in a Time of Turmoil with Michael John Cusick - https://lauriekrieg.com/podcast/getting-to-the-root-of-porn-in-a-time-of-turmoil-with-michael-john-cusick/
- Episode 164: The Spiritual Garden with Carolyn Schroeder - https://lauriekrieg.com/podcast/the-spiritual-garden-with-carolyn-schroeder/
- Episode 166: The Emotional Garden with Peace Amadi - https://lauriekrieg.com/podcast/the-spiritual-garden-with-carolyn-schroeder/
- Episode 173: Marriage and Mental Health with Aaron and Jamie Ivey - https://lauriekrieg.com/podcast/marriage-and-mental-health-with-aaron-jamie-ivey/
- Episode 83: Sexuality and Shame with Dan Allender - https://lauriekrieg.com/podcast/sexuality-and-shame-with-dan-allender/
- Episode 82: How to Lament with Mark Vroegop - https://lauriekrieg.com/podcast/how-to-lament-with-mark-vroegop/
Are you liking this series? Have thoughts about this episode? Email us at lk@lauriekrieg.com.
Have you seen our new favorite Bible yet? Check it out here! https://csbholylandillustratedbible.com
Follow Laurie on Instagram for more ministry updates! https://www.instagram.com/laurie_krieg/?hl=en

Episode 24 Take Two: Is There Hope for Us? with Matt and Laurie Krieg

Welcome to the first episode of our Take Two series!
It was so hard to choose episodes to highlight over the past four (FOUR?!) seasons, but we’ve narrowed it down to a few that we’ll show you over the next several weeks.
This episode discusses Chapter 5 of Francis and Lisa Chan’s book, *You and Me Forever*, as well as some of the good and hard of Matt and Laurie’s own story!
Get ready for a good one guys, we’re excited to revisit this!
I Do the Next Thing I
You can check out *You and Me Forever* by
Francis and Lisa Chan at this link! https://www.youandmeforever.org
Hear more of Laurie and Matt’s story in *An Impossible Marriage*. Find the book at this link! https://lauriekrieg.com/product/an-impossible-marriage-what-our-mixed-orientation-marriage-has-taught-us-about-love-and-the-gospel/
You can also check out Laurie’s story on Remnant Radio and the Happy Hour podcasts!
* The Remnant Radio: https://luminarypodcasts.com/listen/the-remnant-radio/the-remnant-radios-podcast/christian-discuss-lgbtq-subjects-with-laurie-krieg/41bf747e-2cec-4218-acd6-860419d9e3b5
* The Happy Hour: https://jamieivey.com/hh363/
Here are a few of the episodes that were “Runner’s Up” for our favorites!
* Episode 111: Can’t We All Just Get Along with David Bennet - https://lauriekrieg.com/podcast/cant-we-all-just-get-along/
* Episode 167: The Social Garden with Greg Coles - https://lauriekrieg.com/podcast/the-social-garden-with-greg-coles/
* Episode 107: Why Male Friendships are Challenging with Sam and Blaine Eldredge - https://lauriekrieg.com/podcast/why-male-friendships-are-challenging/
* Episode 152: Are Women Responsible for Male Lust? with Rachel Joy Welcher - https://lauriekrieg.com/podcast/are-women-responsible-for-male-lust-with-rachel-joy-welcher/
* Episode 96: Healthy Community (& Touch) As a Single Person with Meg Baatz - https://lauriekrieg.com/podcast/healthy-community-and-touch-as-a-single-person/
* Episode 157: Gen Z’s Sex, Marriage, and Singleness Questions with Sean McDowell - https://lauriekrieg.com/podcast/gen-zs-sex-marriage-and-singleness-questions-with-sean-mcdowell/
Do you need “a friend in the trenches”? Sign up for a coaching session with Laurie here! https://lauriekrieg.com/product/one-coaching-session-with-laurie/
Also, have you seen our new favorite Bible yet? Check it out here! https://csbholylandillustratedbible.com